An interview with Eugen Jebeleanu
about his first production at the National Theater of Cluj
Ștefana Pop-Curșeu: For your first collaboration with our theater, you chose a controversial text, from 1971, by Rainer Werner Fassbinder, which has to do with the sexual emancipation of women. What made you choose this text and what is its relevance today, half a century later?
Eugen Jebeleanu: First of all, the choice was a result of the encounter with the team, after a casting involving all the actors and actresses. It seemed appropriate to me to make a show about women, considering the latest productions at the National Theater of Cluj, where most shows have many actors, for instance 12 Angry Men. I told myself it was high time to have a show with an exclusively female cast. Especially since I felt the actresses' deep desire to act. My encounter with Ramona Dumitrean was particularly important, as she expressed her wish to play a difficult role, which might cost her a lot, after taking a break for a few years during maternity leave. I decided to propose this text because I'm a fan of Fassbinder, I like his writing very much, and I think he is relevant today. It might be a cliché to claim relevance and contemporaneity, to claim that your work will impact today's society, but the way he presents the characters and the stories and the manner in which he showcases certain sensitive themes all seem relevant to me, unfortunately, even 50 years later. This was one of the reasons why I chose the text, due to its subject and because it allows us to tell the story of a woman and a love story between women, because we can present their sexual emancipation; but the show is also about the discovery of one's sexual orientation later in life. The protagonist is no longer twenty and I think it is important to talk about the fact that we can discover ourselves and our sexuality at any age.
On the other hand, we are at a point in history where we are debating the issue of parity, the representation of women, their place in society and the ways in which we choose to tell their stories. Yes, it is a feminist show, in a way, but it also discusses femininity itself, these things overlap. And, perhaps beyond all this, it is also a continuation of my work, given the fact that I started out with Katzelmacher by Fassbinder, at the German Theater of Timișoara, a text which I had previously produced in Stuttgart, and now we are working on The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant here, in Cluj. Both texts have to do with the condition of the artist. Not necessarily someone who works in theater, but also in fashion, being part of the same artistic universe. I am interested in the relevance and usefulness of art today, the ways in which we, the artists, make ourselves vulnerable onstage, the way we relate to our characters, to the stories we tell, the distance, the objectivity and the critique which can be applied to the art that we make today.
Ș. P-C: In the show, you use video documents and fragments from Fassbinder's 1972 homonymous film. What did the film bring to the story that the play didn't have? And how does this visual reference enrich your show?
E. J: Although I had doubts about whether I should use the video fragments in my show, we ended up choosing not to use a live camera and to only include archive images, documentary images and this reference to Fassbinder's film, in order to reflect, to mirror, to complete or to create contrast with the film. That is the contribution of our show: this message, be it subliminal, which offers the spectators some new interpretative codes. And I don't just mean Fassbinder's film, which is a cultural reference directly from the source; I also mean all the other images that we included in the show, women's protests from various countries, contexts and political situations, where, unfortunately, they are still persecuted; the LGBT movements of the 1970s, the fashion shows done by famous women, fashion designers like Coco Chanel. On the one hand, I tried to include these references as an homage; on the other hand, it is meant to be a warning, because, as I was saying, 50 years have passed by and unfortunately, we are still dealing with the same issues.
What I really like about Fassbinder's text, and I am saying this in response to the first question, as well, is that although the central theme is the love story between two women, it becomes a non-subject; that is, the play is not about anti-LGBT prejudice or aggression, it is not about how difficult it is to live like this in today's society, it is not about a system which censors or oppresses people, it is just a fact, a given, a background and a context in which the story takes place, without turning it into a Subject. This seems very valuable to me. It is the same in the film Call Me by Your Name, for example, where homosexuality becomes a non-subject, it is a love story, period. This is how we take another step towards diversity in art.
Ș. P-C: Absolutely. Since we discussed the practice of referencing other artists and the use of these images in a new context, this intertextuality and self-reflexivity, do you think that the set is part of the same technique? After all, you reused the set created by Velica Panduru for another show of yours, you transformed it and used it differently. Is this also a "statement"?
E. J: Yes, of course. On the one hand, we must not hide the fact that both the National Theater of Cluj and other Romanian theaters are facing some economic difficulties, which means that we wouldn't have the necessary budget for a production if we didn't make some compromises. And this is worth mentioning, because what we are discussing here should have an impact. And because of these constraints, together with Velica, we decided to use the set of Les Ogres, a show we produced some time ago in France, with my company, because we found that oneiric universe appropriate for this show, as well; it is a forest, which is a space of freedom, as well as danger. We reinterpreted this set, so that it looks more like a fashion runway, which also represents Petra von Kant's house... there are many ways of reading this scenography and our dramatic vision...
Ș. P-C: However, the transformation is radical: from a dark, burnt forest to a white, clean one.
E. J: Yes, because the other show was about ogres, in a place of aggression for the main character. Now, we chose to change the forest and to propose another interpretation. It is no coincidence that Les Ogres was also about homophobia, and now Fassbinder's text continues to operate with this theme.
Ș. P-C: So, it is a case of intertextuality, but there is also an oscillation between productions...
E. J: And yes, on the other hand, it is a statement, because we, the artists, should be more responsible in terms of how we plan our shows and our sets, our art, because a lot of materials are just thrown out, and this only aggravates the problem of pollution. We don't always do what is right and I was thinking that postdramatic theater is relevant and manifests itself only discursively, onstage, it doesn't do enough, as long as nothing concrete is done to help the environment, something that we leave behind as artists, in our creative process. I believe and I argue that this is an absolutely viable project, not just a premiere - although it is a premiere for me, as well. I condemn the underfunding of state theaters, which constrains and stifles the artist, but, if we get the chance to recycle and reinvent our resources, contributing to the sustainability of our contemporary art, then why not do it, because it doesn't only help us, it also helps an entire universe to breathe more easily.
Ș. P-C: Especially since certain multifunctional spaces can be reused and reinterpreted both technically and through their artistic recontextualization. In your show, the white path going through the forest is a catwalk, it is furniture, a table, a bed. It is a minimalistic setting, as you say, but it is also a complete universe, exterior and interior, which says a lot about the protagonist's personality.
E. J: Everything is filtered through Petra von Kant's personality, and we always work this way, Velica and me; we want the scenography to be either a continuation of the character's interior universe or the setting of the story, but not from a realistic point of view, rather emotionally and intellectually.
Ș. P-C: What about the lights and the sounds in your show? Do they also correspond to the characters' emotions, passions, and ardor?
E. J: The light is an integral part of the set, as we have designed it, Velica and me; it is part of the entire scenography and part of my vision as a director. Which makes it very important, because we don't just want a space that is full of light, we also want to have a common, organic spatial identity. We are trying to explore and exploit Velica's scenography as well as possible, so that we don't neglect the dramatic requirements of this particular play. This is why, as we progress with the rehearsals, we want to maintain this white, cold light, not because the story itself were a cold one, on the contrary, it has a lot of emotion, pathos, and passion; we chose this lighting to allow the public to project whatever they want onto this space and, at the same time, to orient them towards a non-realist interpretation. Although the set was initially a forest, it is not a real forest, so we wanted the lights to reproduce certain natural elements, the sun or the moon.
Ș. P-C: It made me think of the forest of symbols in Charles Baudelaire's poetry, where the scents, the colors and the sounds interact with each other...
E. J: Yes, and music, too. In my last projects, I started using a lot of music throughout the shows, because, on the one hand, I think it creates a cinematic atmosphere and a coherent universe of sound, especially when using lavaliers - like in this show; on the other hand, it can help build tension, when looking at what is happening onstage. This is why I like working with composers rather than just picking some songs and making a collage. There are certain references to Françoise Hardy or You don't own me, the song I chose due to its message, but there is a dialogue between all these, they intersect and complete each other.
Ș. P-C: This is also helpful for the actors, it supports their work...
E. J: This idea of using music is very important to me. Yes, it supports the actors, it creates an atmosphere and a sort of shared tension which is also perceived by the public. Not everyone has the same rhythm. For me, this is relevant when working with the actors, the actresses in this case: finding a common acting strategy, so that we don't end up with five-six actresses working in different styles, different schools. As a director, it is essential to bring the actors together, to create something coherent and honest, and then to unpack the message, as well the aesthetic - substance and form.
Ș. P-C: Finally, what can you tell me about the actresses you worked with?
E. J: We worked very well together, there was no tension, no conflict. Although we didn't have a lot of time, it went very well, and our one-week workshop last winter was very beneficial. Afterwards, the actresses took a few months to process the information I gave them, and when we met again, we started working on the show; the rules of the game had already been established, integrated, and assimilated. So, we started from a different level than usual. I think that Ramona is extraordinary in this role, but so is everyone else... Everything Angelica managed to do through silence and waiting... without having to play a composition role. We didn't want to prove anything obvious, and I was actually quite reserved when directing, to set an example. Because, of course, I couldn't ignore the last productions I worked on. For me, this process is important, as it helps me conduct my artistic pursuits. For The Seagull, which I just directed at TNB, I combined multiple narrative planes, the actors' and the characters' stories. Here, on the contrary, I wanted something cleaner, more minimalistic and fresher, which might be a radical way of doing contemporary theater on a big stage. Fortunately, we had a good text, a very good cast, and then it wasn't even necessary for me be an exceptional director. All these projects teach you a lot, I felt I no longer needed to prove anything, to prove my talent or my cultural baggage... what is important is to make something honest, something that is necessary for me, for the team and for our social context. And that's all.
When I talked to the actresses and Ovidiu Zimcea, who actually laughed at me, I told them that I wanted my hand to be invisible. Yes, I wanted it to be seamless, I didn't want the public to notice my ideas as a director, which I am trying to push on the show, because I'm a superior artist who has come to understand some things about the world and is here to provide some education and culture. No! I tried to limit myself, to be minimalistic in my interventions, and the actresses responded so well to my suggestions and I enjoyed the relaxed atmosphere - it wasn't easy, but there was no bitterness.
Ș. P-C: Yes, I also noticed a very good reaction to the text, to the entire project, the total openness...
E. J: I have felt it, as well, this atmosphere of harmony, the honest pursuit, the fact that we are not trying to cause a revolution, but we are consistent in our attempt to use the input we get from the public and the actors alike. At a certain point, when we were half-done with the rehearsals, I had a strange feeling, I was telling Velica and the others that everything was going too well and maybe that was a problem... We were so used to having various difficulties and problems that we no longer knew to handle comfort. I keep wondering what can be done. It is good that the artist is constantly serving the stage, but we should also be served by the stage and our work, because after all we are human, we have our own emotions and stories... Yes, it was a very pleasant collaboration for us all. I don't know if we learned from one another, but we surely challenged each other - in the best way possible - without bullying or aggression or any other type of conflict, which happens too often, unfortunately. We should actually stop promoting that kind of work.
Ș. P-C: Thank you, Eugen.
E. J: Thank you!
The interview took place in Cluj, on July 6th 2022.